Thomas Eller 托马斯· 艾伦
Dudu：你好艾默思！我很荣幸认识您在第一届北京画廊周，当时你是担任北京画廊周执行主席，能谈谈你在什么情况下去到中国？并且把柏林画廊周的模式引入到北京？
Hello Thomas！ I was honored to meet you at the first Beijing Gallery Week, when you were the executive chairman of Beijing Gallery Week. Can you talk about your circumstances in China? And introduce the model of Berlin Gallery Week to Beijing?
艾伦：是的，那是一个非常好的项目。 2017年我们可以非常成功地吸引国际收藏家和博物馆馆长来北京。这是可能的。
Yes, that was a very good project. We could very successfully attract international collectors and museum directors to come to Beijing in 2017. It was possible.
因为我们对情况做了非常彻底的分析。 如果你看一下，艺术博览会只会在世界各地的金融中心成功。 例如，柏林是国际艺术界的一个非常重要的城市，但永远无法建立一个持久的、重要的艺术博览会。 相反，这座城市是艺术生活和工作的主要场所。 上海发展艺术021和西岸，这证明了我们对北京的判断是正确的。 和柏林一样，北京是一个重要的艺术生产地和各自国家的政治中心。当北京的画廊开始向我抱怨业务萎缩和人们搬到上海时，我向他们建议了一个画廊周末，这当然是 正确的选择，因为我也希望它与香港巴塞尔艺术展同时举行，出于非常实际的原因。 我知道西方收藏家经常去亚洲旅行是多么困难。 所以香港巴塞尔艺术展前的周末是最好的时刻。 当然，当时在北京举行的另一场博览会是绝对不会被接受的。 但我们的画廊周末北京已经成为 ABHK VIP 计划的一部分。 帮助我做到这一点的是我在艺术界的长期职业生涯和一些非常牢固的人际关系。另一个因素是，我完全在北京。 当时我不属于任何人的关系。 否则很难说服竞争画廊加入。
because we did a very thorough analysis of the situation. If you look at it, art fairs are only successful in financial centers around the world. Berlin, for example, is a very important city in the international artworld, but could never establish a long- lasting significant art fair. Instead the city is a major place for artistic to live and work. When Shanghai developed art 021 and Westbund, this proved our assessment regarding Beijing to be correct. Like Berlin, Beijing is a major place for artistic production and the political center of the respective country.
When galleries in Beijing started complaining to me about shrinking business and people moving to Shanghai, I suggested a Gallery Weekend to them, which was of course the right choice, because I also wanted it to be coinciding with Art Basel Hongkong, for very practical reasons. I knew how difficult it was for Western collectors to travel to Asia too often. So the weekend before Art Basel HK was the best possible moment. Of course another fair in Beijing at that time would have never been accepted. But our Gallery Weekened Beijing became part of the VIP program of ABHK already at its first iteration. What helped me do this is my long career in the art world and some very solid personal connections.
The other element was, that I was completely in Beijing. I was not part of anybody ́s guanxi at the time. Otherwise it would have been difficult to convince the competing galleries to join in.
从本质上讲，这是一个特殊的时刻，我是唯一拥有技能和人脉的人可以做到这一点。 我同时处于连接状态和中立状态。 而且我可以履行，因为我确信国际艺术界来北京只是需要一个理由。但我也向所有人明确表示，当然人们来不是因为我。 他们来北京是因为北京的优秀画廊，更重要的是在这座城市工作的梦幻般的艺术家。 我很幸运能在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，并且足够勤奋，不会把自己当回事。 真的是舞台设计师的工作，搭建好舞台，做好灯光，让别人发光。想想都很难过，现在因为疫情不能去旅行了 .
Essentially it was an exceptional moment and I was the only person with the skill-sets and connections who could do it. I was connected and neutral both at the same time. And I could deliver, because I was sure that the international artworld just needed a reason to come to Beijing.
But I also made it abundantly clear to everyone, that people of course did not come, because of me. They came because of the good galleries in Beijing and more importantly the phantastic artists that work in the city. I was just lucky to be at the right place at the right time and be diligent enough to not make it about myself. The job really was that of a stage designer, who sets up the stage and takes care of proper lighting, so others can shine.
When I think about it I feel very sad, that it is impossible to travel at the moment because of the pandemic.
Dudu：一方面，你是一位受过严格训练，拥有众多艺术创作的优秀艺术家，另一方面，你参与了大量当代艺术展览的策划，评论工作。这二者之间是怎样的一种互文关系？能从艺术家和艺术批评写作上分别谈谈吗？
On the one hand, you are an excellent artist who has received strict training and has many artistic creations. On the other hand, you have participated in the planning and commenting of a large number of contemporary art exhibitions. What is the intertextual relationship between the two? Can you talk about artists and art criticism writing separately?
艾伦：我猜从外面看，我好像在做两三件不同的事情。 但在内心，我不觉得那样。 当你看我的作品时，你会在其中看到很多“我”。 但从一开始我就做出了一个决定，我对“我”不太感兴趣——我对“你”更感兴趣。 但是为了让“我”和“你”进入对话，我们需要见面。 因此，展示自己是一种微妙的信息，让“你”也展示自己而不是隐藏。
I guess from the outside it looks like I am doing two or three different things. But on the inside, I don ́t feel like that. When you look at my work you see a lot of „me“ in it. But from the beginning I made a decision that I am not so much interested in „me“ – I am more interested in „you“. But in order for „me“ and „you“ to enter a dialog, we need to meet. So showing myself is sort of a subtle message for „you“ to show yourself as well and not hide.
因为我对“你”感兴趣，人们开始向我寻求建议或帮助。 所以我开始帮助并成为艺术界的许多不同的“人”。所以对我来说，艺术和策展、写作、组织成为“对你感兴趣”的一部分。 在我 20 多岁的时候，我有一种预感。 我记得我给自己做了一张明信片，标题是“Selbst als Mann der Möglichkeiten”（自己是一个拥有无限可能的人）。
And because I am interested in „you“ people started asking my advice or for help. So I started helping and became many different „persons“ in the artworld.
So for me art and curating, writing, organizing became a part of „being interested in you“. When I was in my 20s, I had a premonition of sorts. I remember making a postcard of myself with the title „Selbst als Mann der Möglichkeiten“ (self a man of infinite possibilities).
- exhibition at THE gallery
THE gallery 策划的近期画廊展览
^
Dudu：据我所知2004年，你回到德国，在互联网平台artnet上创办了一本在线艺术杂志。作为董事总经理，你发展了中国业务团队，并与巴塞尔艺术展和联邦德国画廊协会（BVDG）建立了多项合作。你能谈谈吗？
As far as I know in 2004, you went back to Germany and started an online art magazine on the internet platform artnet. As Managing Director, you developed the China business team and established several collaborations with Art Basel and the Federal Association of German Galleries (BVDG). can you talk.
艾伦：是的，我从 1994 年到 2004 年住在纽约市。那时我“只是”一个艺术家，但我学会了如何生活在一个文化和政治不同的体系中。 这也是互联网开始的时候，当然当时美国比德国先进得多。 我记得我的一位艺术家朋友向我介绍了在切尔西街上教皇的创始人彼得·泰尔。 那在柏林永远不会发生。
Yes, I was living in New York CIty from 1994 to 2004. At that time I was „just“ an artists, but I learned how to live in a culturally and politically different system. It was also the time when the internet started and of course the USA were much more advanced than Germany at that time. I remember being introduced to Peter Thiel, the founder of papal on the street in Chelsea by an artist friend of mine. That would have never happened in Berlin.
所以当我回到德国时，我看到了许多需要完成和发展的事情。 尽管 artnet 是一家非常重要的公司（当时唯一的艺术市场平台），但没有多少人了解其潜力。 巴塞尔艺术展 2004 年的网站是画廊和艺术家姓名的列表以及一些静态图像。 所以我去向他们介绍了一个在线销售平台的想法。 我的意思是......当我写这篇文章时，它似乎是互联网石器时代......这再次成功了几年，在 artnet 决定创建一个拍卖平台并因此与所有客户竞争之前......画廊、拍卖行和 艺术博览会。 那是我决定辞职离开公司的时候。
So when I came back to Germany I saw many things that needed to be done and to be developed. And even though artnet was a very important company (the only art market platform at the time) not many people understood the potential. Art Basel ́s website in 2004 was a list of galleries and artist names and a few static images. So I went to introduce the idea of an online sales platform to them. I mean ... when I write about this it seems internet stone age...
Again this was successful for a few years, before artnet decided to create an auction platform and therefore compete with all their clients ... galleries, auction houses and art fairs. That is when I decided to quit and leave the company.
我也觉得我想再次接近艺术创作，并成为柏林 Temporäre Kunsthalle Berlin 的导演之一……这是一个为期两年的项目，位于城市中心的 Schloßplatz，前普鲁士城堡的所在地，现在是 洪堡论坛。 那可能是迄今为止我一生中最激动人心、最疲惫的时光。 这是一个能见度高、能量巨大的地方。
I also felt I wanted to get closer to artistic production again and became one of the directors of Temporäre Kunsthalle Berlin ... a two-year project at the heart of the city on Schloßplatz, the location of the former Prussian castle and now home to Humboldt Forum. That was maybe the most exciting and exhausting time in my life until now. It was a place of high visibility and enormous energies.
Dudu：作为艺术家和策展人，在后疫情时代，你觉得策展作为一种艺术实践如何回应新的阶段？据我所知你们正在尝试在艺术市场中工作的新方式，同时自主运作，在不同空间展出。
As an artist and a curator, in the post-pandemic era, how do you think curating as an art practice responds to the new stage? As far as I know you are experimenting with new ways of working in the art market, while operating autonomously and exhibiting in different spaces.
艾伦：让我拿出我的水晶球谈谈未来。 许多事情对我们来说已经发生了变化，更多的变化将会到来。 我们都过着非常全球化的生活，尽管我们来自世界各地，我们的目标和愿望非常全球化。 大流行使我们停下来重新考虑。 我亲自接管了位于德国南部一个小村庄的家族豪宅，我已经开始将其改造成一个国际艺术中心。
Let me get out my crystal ball and speak about the future. Many things have changed for us already and more changes will be coming. We all have been living very global lives, even though we come from different parts of the world and our
goals and aspirations have been very global. The pandemic caused us to stop and reconsider. I personally took over the family mansion in the South of Germany in a small village which I have begun transforming into an international art center.
同时我看到很多艺术家对有形的东西、材料、触觉和气味更感兴趣。 同时，元宇宙和 NFT 的想法将我们推向了虚拟世界的更深处。 换句话说：范围正在扩大——我们将能够生活和热爱非常当地的生活，并且比以前更加紧密地联系在一起。 这将是令人兴奋还是令人失望，这取决于其创始人和监管机构将如何管理这一发展。
At the same time I see a lot of artists being more interested in tanglible things, materials, touch and smell. At the same time ideas of the metaverse and NFTs have pushed us deeper into virtual worlds. In other words: the gamut is widening – we will be able to live and love very local life’s and be connected even more than before. It will be exciting, or disappointing, depending on how this developments will be managed by its founders and regulatory bodies.
Dudu：目前这个疫情的特殊情况下你回到德国，你将面临怎样的挑战和机遇？你还打算回到中国吗？
Under the current special circumstances of the epidemic, when you return to Germany, what challenges and opportunities will you face? Are you still planning to go back to China?
艾伦：我最近非常忙于中国和德国的项目。
I recently got very busy with projects in China and Germany.
Thomas remodels gallery from his old house THE gallery
（托马斯用他的老房子改造画廊：THE gallery）
^
Thomas Eller 托马斯· 艾伦
CURRENT:（近期工作）：
28.8.22 – 5.2.23
Forming Communities: Berliner Wege
道法柏林, 而游于 (Dào faˇ bólín, ér yóu yú wài) curators. Li Zhenhua, Thomas Eller
KINDL – Zentrum für zeitgenössische Kunst kindl-berlin.de
1. - 30.10.22
Artists and Power. Lutz Dammbeck, Jean Oberlé, Charles Wilp, Wolfgang Müller (Tödliche Doris),
A.R. Penck, Jean Cocteau, Arno Breker, Ellinor Michel THEgallery, the-gallery.online
1.1- 30.0.22
Where Power Lies. 31 Portraits by the
Iranian artist Maryam Mottalebi THEgallery, the-gallery.online
26.10.22
Zuweilen ist Ehrlichkeit die eleganteste Maske. Thomas Eller im Gespräch mit Werner Büttner. Neues Museum Nürnberg
nmn.de
28.10.22
Der Stamm der armen Teufel
Ausstellung: Werner Büttner und Thomas Eller Institut für Moderne Kunst Nürnberg moderne-kunst.org
12.11.22
Die Wege des Wassers 水之道
Ausstellung: Werner Knaupp und Meng Huang THEgallery, the-gallery.online
With support by: Auswärtiges Amt
50 Years Deutschland – China
29.12.22
The Symphony of all Changes Curator for the
7. Guangzhou Triennial gdmoa.org
So there is not a day that I don ́t think about how to get back to China. I never felt homesick for New York. But Beijing keeps calling me in my dreams. But of course I know that Beijing will also have changed in the meantime.
Dudu: 作为艺术方面的前辈，你想对希望进入这个行业的学生有什么经验和建议？
As a senior in the arts, what experience and advice would you like to give to students who wish to enter this industry?
艾伦：反正他们也不听劝告，所以我要告诉他们：
They would not listen to advice anyways, so I would tell them this:
艺术是什么?
What is art?
艺术是一只白⻁在舔舐河蟹的绒毛
Art is when a river crab gets her hairy parts licked by a white tiger.
一个艺术家要能够测量 筹划出舌头到绒毛之间的空间
As an artist, you need to be able to measure and map out the space between the tongue and the hair
所以有时候你需要躬身 不惧被打湿
So sometimes you need to bend down and get wet
有时刚好你在的时候 白⻁的鼻子会被河蟹钳住
Sometimes the tiger gets pinched in the nose by the crab, just while you are there
不管任何时候 艺术家都要做好准备
In any case as an artist, you’d better be prepared
因为舔舐的方式太多了
Because there are a million ways of licking.
Thomas Eller托马斯· 艾伦
1990 年至今：作为艺术家在欧洲、亚洲和美洲的博物馆和画廊举办展览
2014 年至 2020 年：北京、景德镇
2008 年至 2009 年：柏林美术馆艺术总监
2006 年：科尔惠支 - 柏林艺术学院奖
2004 - 2008：柏林，artnet 杂志的创始人和主编
2000：佛罗伦萨，罗马别墅
1995 - 2003：纽约，绿卡
1987 - 1995：柏林社会科学中心 (WZB) 研究助理
1994：Karl Schmidt -Rottluff Prize
1986 - 1989：宗教研究、哲学和艺术史研究，柏林大学
1985: 学习美术, HdK Berlin, 三个学期后被强制退学 留在
国外:
2014 – 2020: 北京
2001 – 2003: 纽约
2000: 佛罗伦萨
1995 – 1999: 纽约
奖 (选择):
Denkzeichen Georg Elser 2010, 柏林, 2nd
2006 年 10 月，Projekt Zukunft Berlin
Käthe Kollwitz 奖，柏林艺术学院奖，2006 年Art
Omi 国际艺术中心，纽约，2002 年
Villa Romana 奖得主，佛罗伦萨，2000 年
Karl Schmidt-Rottluff 奖，1996
年建筑艺术：
2015 ：“THE house”，与Thomas Hillig 合作的建筑项目，Anklamer Str. Berlin
2011：“人就是他吃的东西”，弗里德里希-亚历山大大学埃尔兰根
2008：“马赛克（药用植物）”，约翰内斯韦斯林诊所，明登
2004：“多/视觉”，RadioShack，沃思堡，TX
2002： “镜子和楼梯，同时行走”，安联慕尼黑
2001：“能量流”，克莱因收藏，努斯多夫，斯图加特
1998：“集市 - 自我”，HUK-Coburg，科堡
1997：“通道 - SELBST”，Hypo -银行，路德维希港
收藏（选择）：
不来梅威廉哈克
美术馆，路德维希港
新博物馆，纽伦堡
Berlinische Galerie
Aby Rosen，22nd Century Acquisition，纽约
Francis Greenburger Collection
Michael Straus，安迪·沃霍尔基金会
收藏 Defet，纽伦堡
Carol Schuster 收藏，纽约
Peter Raue，柏林
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