IDD | 对话巨匠：Steven Holl 建筑师事务所合伙人、亚洲区项目总监 Roberto Bannura/ VOL.6

特别鸣谢 | 首席领先伙伴

RARA 系统定制家居

以构建国际领先的系统定制家居品牌为理念

对“IDD世界领先设计对话”的支持

IDD世界领先设计对话，是广州设计周联合GIA广州设计周全球伙伴联盟中的中外设计领先机构、组织和媒体发起的一项对话世界设计领先者的国际设计交流计划，IDD世界领先设计对话以「MASTER MIND巨匠的思索」为思想探寻的的主旨方向，希冀通过与世界领先设计巨匠对话，探索世界领先设计思想，以世界领先推动中国领先，以中国领先影响世界设计。

十几年来，广州设计周对于中国设计与世界领先设计思索的交流对话从未停止，IDD世界领先设计对话以对话巨匠、发掘新声、臻选杰作三大内容版块构建年度运营体系，由此推动世界领先设计与中国设计之间的对话交流和发展。

对话巨匠，追随领先

Dialoguing With Masters To Follow The Leading

IDD将面向世界各国在设计领域具有领先建树、实践和思索的业界翘楚或机构，并联动中外领先设计机构、组织和媒体共同推举，每年甄选“IDD年度设计巨匠”，全年通过登门访谈、演讲论坛等形式对话“IDD年度设计巨匠”，探寻巨匠的思索，策划形成访谈视频、专题、出版刊物等内容，分别在HKDC香港设计中心的BODW+/viuTV进行全球播放，并在中外设计领先传播平台和渠道进行宣发和展示，希冀汇集世界领先设计思索，启迪中国乃至世界设计产业的更新发展。

对话巨匠追随领先 | VOL.6

Roberto Bannura

智利 | Republic of Chile

Steven Holl Architects

斯蒂文·霍尔建筑师事务所是一家拥有35名员工的具有创新精神的建筑和城市设计办公室，在全球三个地点（纽约市、北京和哈德逊谷）作为一个办公室开展工作。

Steven Holl Architects is a 35-person innovative architecture and urban design office working globally as one office from three locations: New York City, Beijing and Hudson Valley.

斯蒂文·霍尔建筑师事务所以其对环境敏感度高的空间和光线塑造能力以及催化每个项目独特品质的能力而获得认可，以创建多尺度的概念驱动设计，从最小住宅到大学工程，再到新的城市混合模式。该公司已在世界各地完成建筑工程，在艺术、校园和教育设施、住宅工程、混合用途和办公设计、公共工程和总体规划方面具有丰富经验。

Steven Holl Architects is recognized for the ability to shape space and light with great contextual sensitivity and to catalyze the unique qualities of each project to create a concept-driven design at multiple scales, from minimal dwellings, to university works, to new hybrid models of urbanism. The firm has realized architectural works around the world, with extensive experience in the arts, campus and educational facilities, and residential work, as well as mix use and office design, public works, and master planning.

- IDD对话巨匠系列专访 -

本期走进斯蒂文·霍尔建筑师事务所

对话 Steven Holl 事务所合伙人

亚洲区项目总监 Roberto Bannura

一起探讨世界顶尖建筑设计事务所背后的领先意识

Roberto Bannura

斯蒂文·霍尔建筑师事务所合伙人、亚洲区项目总监

Steven Holl Architects Partner, Asia Director

罗勃特先生自2007年起加入斯蒂文·霍尔建筑师事务所，至今已于北京15年了。2010年时他升任事务所北京办公室的总监，2018年成为事务所合伙人。在来到中国之前他居住纽约10年之久。他于1995年在智利大学以最优异成绩毕业，取得建筑师与城市规划师学位（等同于硕士学位）。

Mr. Bannura has spent the last 15 years living and working in Beijing since he joined Steven Holl Architects in 2007. In 2010, Mr. Bannura was made Director of the Beijing office and in 2018 he became Partner. Prior to his involvement in China, Mr. Bannura spent 10 years living and working in New York City, Mr. Bannura received his Degree of Architect and Urban Planner from the Universidad de Chile in 1995 (Master Degree equivalent), where he graduated Summa Cum Laude.

QUESTIONS ABOUT DESIGN AND PROJECT

关于工作和项目

您如何保持行业领先的地位和领导团队？这有外部行业内和内部引领团队两个层面

How do you maintain that kind of leadership position？There are 2 sides to this leadership.

这是很好的问题，感谢你提出来。我觉得 Steven 对未来的愿景给我们提供了很好的帮助，使得成为行业领先者是很容易的事情。Steven 和库哈斯，扎哈都是伦敦AA的建筑学同学，他们在那里相识相知，成为挚友，但之后都各自成立了迥然不同的事务所，也都非常成功。我认为能够让我们一直都处于领先地位的还是要归功于 Steven 在我们每个人头脑中灌输的对建筑品质从不妥协的高要求，为此要穷尽我们所有的能力来做出优秀的建筑。

Great question. I love the question thanks for asking it. I think it's it's an easy thing to do and all credit goes to the firm that Steven envisioned to have. Him, Rem Koolhaas and Zaha Hadid all met at the AA and they became really close friends. Then they ended up having very different practices, very accomplished practices, but very different practices. If you think there's a level of leadership in the work we do, I'd like to think it's because of the high quality standards and the uncompromising aspect that Steven instilled in all of us, in achieving great architecture to the best of our capabilities.

中粮南桥半岛文体中心与医疗服务站，上海

COFCO Culture & Health Center, Shanghai

图片Photo by：Aogvision 奥观建筑视觉

艺术与建筑之间的关系是怎样的？

What is the relation(ship) for you and for the firm between art and architecture?

我们所做的项目都遵循某个思路，这个思路要足够强大，可以指导我们从概念阶段一直到执行落地阶段。从功能和形式，到与马蒂斯画作的关联（针对当代MOMA项目而言）。再从形式到材料以及家具的选择，这是组织起所有方面的一条线索。显然，这一思路都来自我们的首席设计师 Steven ，这个方法很好，就像是给了我们一把大伞，我们可以在下面做事和探索。

Every project that we do follows a single idea that is strong enough to carry the project from concept (such as) the hybrid of functions and forms and the association to Matisse in regards to the Linked Hybrid project, all the way to the selection of materials and furniture, that is sort of one thread that organizes everything. Obviously, that concept comes from Steven, our lead designer. It's a really good strategy because it gives you some sort of umbrella to operate under.

成都（来福士项目）有一个完全不同的概念，这体现在它是如何融入到成都的城市结构肌理中去，我们是如何真正想要创建一个被建筑包围的公共空间，从而使公共空间与建筑本身不可分割。你不能把其中一个元素从另一个里去除掉，所以从这个意义上说，我认为像北京的当代MoMA一样，我们做的每个项目都是极其不同的，因为这是一个关于不断探索的问题。每个项目总是有一个独特的设计理念，而且在地性非常高。

For instance our Chengdu (Raffles city) project had a different concept altogether, which was manifested on how it was inserted into the urban fabric of Chengdu, how we really wanted to create a public space surrounded by the architecture, so the massing of the building and the public space are indivisible. You cannot remove one from the other, so in that sense, I think as in the LINKED HYBRID, every project that we do is extremely different because it is a matter of exploration. It's always a singular idea and is very site-specific.

OSTRAVA音乐厅，捷克共和国

CONCERT HALL, OSTRAVA，CZECH REPUBLIC

图片Photo by：Steven Holl Architects

关于未来，事务所关注的关键词有哪些？

What future holds for Steven Holl, China? What are the keywords?

我认为当然是“探索”，而且一直都是。未来我们希望能得到一些城市更新类型的项目。我们事务所的核心之一是在每一个项目中创造社区化的公共空间，这对我们非常重要。因此我认为我们在中国其实可以有更多城市更新的项目，因为这是一直以来我们设计方案的核心所在。

I think it would continue to be "exploration" for sure, hopefully getting a little bit of that urban regeneration. At the core of our practice is the creation of communal spaces. That's in every one of our projects. That's very important to us. And that's why I think we should get a lot of the urban projects here in China in a way, because that's centered within our proposal.

我们现在对探索城市更新特别感兴趣。我住在北京已经有15年了，这里也是我的家。我看到这个城市的发展方向很令人期待。在做可持续设计的同时，还可以重建城市社区或改造建筑，我认为这是我们现在可以做的最可持续的事情之一，而不是在设计的最后阶段来思考有没有足够的预算用于可持续性设计。这一点如果在重新制定管理城市里某个区域的规范时，实际上可以是做到的。其次是为公共空间再次赋能的部分，我们可以并且已经做过这样的项目了。

I am particularly interested right now in exploring urban regeneration. I live in Beijing. Beijing has been my home for 15 years and I see that that's the way it's going. And I think it's both an excellent development in terms of sustainability design and to regenerate an urban area, a building or a structure(at the same time). That, I think, is one of the most sustainable things we can do right now instead of beginning from scratch, you can actually achieve a sustainable project if you are renovating an area of a city, and second to that is the urban (invigoration) part . We can do and we have done work like that.

说实话，我一直都想在中国做更多的文化项目。例如，设计大学里的建筑，我想我们会做得很好。我们也设计过博物馆，一个文化建筑里所需的几乎所有相关类型的空间设计我们都涉猎过，真的很想在中国多做一些教育类的项目。

I have to be honest with you. I've always wanted to do more cultural projects in China. I would love to do a university project for instance, we're pretty good at that I think. We've done museums and with that, pretty much everything else within cultural buildings and for some reason (university projects keep on) slipping from our grasp. I would love to do something related to education here in China.

碳云总部大厦综合体建筑，深圳

iCarbonX Headquarters Complex, Shenzhen

图片Photo by：Aogvision 奥观建筑视觉

您如何做业务上的拓展，如何选择做哪些项目呢？

How do you do business development or select projects to do？

我们很幸运，也很感激人们知道我们的工作。斯蒂文选择接收的设计项目类型相当地一致。

We are fortunate enough and very grateful that people know of our work. Steven has been spearheading a firm that is fairly consistent in the type of work we do.

我们不认为事务所的拓展和运营是一种商业，我们认为它是一家建筑设计公司一直在试图找到下一个热情的合作者。我们寻求的是一个真正的合作伙伴，也了解我们的工作内容和理念，一起去探索。我们被邀请参加许多竞赛，规划部门也都知道我们可以做什么类型的工作，以及我们如何在讨论中提出有意义的方案。

We don't see it as business and we see it as an architectural firm that tries to meet new and enthusiastic collaborators. What we seek is a true partner who understands the work we do and is willing to explore that with us. We get invited to many competitions since planning departments know the type of work we can do and how we can, in a way, contribute with an interesting proposal to a discussion.

我想说的是，我们喜欢在更少的项目上投入更多的工作，而不是拿更多的项目却投入少量的工作时间。

I'd like to say that we like to work more on fewer projects than work less on more projects.

OSTRAVA音乐厅，捷克共和国

CONCERT HALL, OSTRAVA，CZECH REPUBLIC

图片Photo by：Steven Holl Architects

QUESTIONS ABOUT CURRENT ISSUES

关于时事

从当代MoMA到现在的项目，您看到中国可持续或者“碳中和”设计有什么变化么？

What changes do you find in China in recent years to sustainability&Carbon neutralization design?

你刚提到的另一重点是可持续性。在这几年对抗新冠的时光里，我们两个办公室（纽约和北京）都经历了深刻的自我反省，比如说，“我们怎么能做得不同？需要做出什么样的不同？”我们很快意识到，因为我们一直在实践可持续设计的概念，现在人们开始追求开放空间和绿色空间，景观和建筑在自然光下融合，流通的空气和自然通风等，所有这些元素都根植于我们的建筑设计中，一直都是。因此，Z世代在这方面非常明智，他们是非常积极的行动派，也希望很多事情是绿色环保，可再生的。而我们一直也是做这样的设计。因此，我们不必对公司进行重新定位。我认为我们需要确保人们了解我们设计的建筑并实地去体验它。

During the Covid experience, we went through sort of a deep soul-searching experience, "How can we work differently? What needs to be done differently?" And we quickly came to the realization that because we had been practicing concepts of sustainable design (as people are validating open space and green space), the merger of landscape and architecture, use of natural light, cross-air natural ventilation and so on. all those elements are embedded into the architectural design that we have been doing all along. So, the Gen-Z is pretty wise in that regard. They have this very positive activism that they want things to be green, to be renewable. And we're right there, we don't have to redo things. So we don't have to sort of reposition our firm and the work we do. I think we need to make sure that people understand the work we do, and basically to go there and experience the building we designed.

北京旭辉七里庄商办大楼

CIFI building, Beijing

图片Photo by：Aogvision 奥观建筑视觉

您如何理解“照骗”上的美好建筑呢？

What do you think of "picture-perfect" architecture?

建筑意味着体验，这是我们设计的最终目标。很遗憾尤其是媒体传播方面大多数人都在消费建筑，或者说通过网红流量来使用建筑，在这点上我想你会同意我的观点。特别是我们所做的建筑设计主要的驱动是体验，而不是建筑的形式，不是几何形状，不仅仅是漂亮的照片。人们需要在现实中去体验这个空间，才能理解设计概念，以及它在所处公共空间的在地性，与其他建筑的关系，以及当地的历史。这是一个非常个人化的观察，因此只有你实际见到一栋建筑时，你才会明白。

Buildings are meant to be experienced, that's the ultimate goal. Unfortunately now, and I think you may agree with me as you work in media, what most of the people consume is digital media. Particularly for the work that we do, the main driver for designing our buildings is the experience, not the form, not the geometry, it's not just for the pretty photos. People need to experience the space, understand the concepts. The placement of it on the site, the relationship it has with the site, with its history. It's a very personal observation, but you only get it if you experience a building.

给年轻设计师的建议有哪些？

Any advice for younger designers?

正如你所说，这是一个充满挑战的时代。但同时，我想回到我之前提到的，我真的相信成为一名建筑师不是靠学习就可以了。我的意思是，如果你决定成为一位建筑师就会表现出该有的特质，也会逐渐通过不断练习变得专业。所以，并不是因为市场低迷，你就不再是一名建筑师，也不是因为你失去了工作或者你的项目被停滞了你就不再是一名建筑师了。其实能有很多方法一直保持建筑师应有的创造力。即使你失业了，也要想办法让自己主动设计。国际竞赛一直都有，通过它你可以不断积累你的设计词量，精心设计你的设计语言。无论市场情况如何，你都可以一直这样做。

It is, as you say, challenging times. But at the same time, I think going back to what I mentioned before I truly believe that you don't study to be an architect. I mean if this is for you, you BECOME that person, you become that professional. So it is not because the market is down that you stop being an architect or not because you lost your job or your project got cancelled that you stop being an architect. There are many ways that you can and you should always continue to be creative. Even if you are out of the workforce, then find a way to design yourself. There are competitions, you keep accumulating your design vocabulary and elaborating your design language. And you can do that all the time, regardless of the market conditions.